The New Journey..........My Response.........

Part One

Once I had the original papers cancelled, I moved on to responding to BG's last email. It took me a couple of days to write an appropriate response. I was so angry, I needed to take my time so the anger didn't spill over and wreck what I wanted to do.

I took a lesson from BG when I did my response. To keep track of what I was answering, I pasted BG's responses in bold into the message portion of the email. I did not include the list of work that BG told me he figured paid for the horse although I did address those issues. I did delete the portion of the email that was my previous email. Even though that is what he was responding, by this time we were talking about a lot of pages when printed out, so I deleted my old portions out. To follow this discussion you may have to check the last post to see what each section is about. Maybe not. For me, I have these details so down, I know exactly what I'm talking about.

BG's responses are in bold. My answer to them in italics. You will see I addressed the inappropriate things he put in that last email. I also confirmed points of our contract. There was a method to this even though it may not be obvious here. It will show itself over time.

Here's the email.......

Reference was more about taking me off facebook
I realize that your reference was to me taking you off my facebook friends list. What I see is that it doesn't go both ways. It seems to me you have a different set of rules you expect me to live by but they don't apply to you. You expect me to deal with you but it's ok for you to quit dealing with me anytime you want. That is why I made this reference.

Which this might have not been the best reaction. terminating this makes all concerned, looking bad.
Again I will say that is your opinion. My opinion was the opposite. It was my FB page and I did what I thought was best

Maybe it should have been stated to take it off line. If that had occurred to me, maybe I would have done that. But it didn't occur to me at the time and now it is a mute point.

But it felt that way. I was very taken back by this. All I can say is that I'm sorry that was not my intention. I knew it could be reinstated if that's what we wanted to do. It never dawned on me that might not be the case.

I could say the same thing...we are supposed to be friends. I suppose you could. We see things differently that's for sure. Yet you didn't address the double standard I was referring too. I am supposed to understand where you are coming from but you somehow are not required to do the same.

I think no one really mint harm it was just taken very wrong. Angie was defending me and all the work I had done. She had seen me work long hours, on 12 different horses, hauling your horses for you when you couldn't , bred your horses for you when you were out of town, help you at the shows and even go to a show we were not even attending for you, keeping one of the horses boarded here for 5 mos. or more (and was to be taken off the balance of Storm.) ...and also get hurt. She was just reacting. WF is not very knowledgeable on face book and didn't know how to read past postings so this might have come out wrong.
I realize that WF was feeling defensive thinking that I wasn't giving you credit for all the things you've done. Again I will say the post was strictly about explaining the status of the horses so that no one would think the horses were hard to train or that you hadn't done a good job because they assumed the horses had been in training continuously since they were started early last fall.

I guess it surprises me that you present the above list of things you've done for me like it supports WF's theory that I don't appreciate you. The mere fact it has been done that way makes me wonder if either of you has considered any of the things that I have done for you. I thought we were both helping each other out with lots of things neither of us was required to do. Yet the only thing that seems to be noticed by either of you is what you did for me.

In case you are wondering, I remember the things that you have done for me that weren't part of our agreement on Storm. I have expressed my gratitude for those things over and over. I am not denying nor did I ever that you have helped me above and beyond what others might have done. You told me you were doing those things because we were friends.

Doing things to help out a friend has not been one sided. I have put as much effort into helping you as you have me. Yet it comes across that none of that counts for anything. It's back to that thing that WF thinks you working horses for me was some kind of favor when you were doing it to pay for the horse and that I am somehow ungrateful.

In case you have forgotten, there are many things I have done for you as well. I have given you my eyes when you are riding to help you with problems with the other horses you work, not just my own. That may not sound like much to some but with my eyes I can assure you it was an effort on my part and I did it to be helpful. I shared information with you that I thought might help you whenever possible about other things as well. I helped at shows setting up and getting things AND people organized so you wouldn't be so stressed. I coached your students on the rail. I have helped with problems with clients helping them to see things in a different light so they wouldn't fight what you were trying to accomplish with their horses and/or kids. That was no easy feat. Not to mention the relationship you now have with my granddaughter was started because of me. Her first mare was in training with you through a relationship of mine. Had Bev not put Goldie with you, neither of GD’s two training horses would be there. Then there is the half Arabian colt that was in for training for halter. You told me you needed my to train him to stand up to show or the horse wouldn’t come for training. I agreed to do that to help you out.

I also groomed my horses that you were training to make things go more quickly and to help you with the work. No one I know that pays for training is required to do their own grooming. You or the kids were grooming all of your other training horses. Yet you left me to groom my own, taking for granted that I would do so, despite the fact that I was "paying" for the training since it was credited towards the balance owed on Storm. I am not saying that I minded grooming but I think if you’re thinking you did all kinds of things for me while I did nothing in return that just isn’t so. I was willing to be helpful and stepped up wherever I could because we were friends doing things to help each other. The only reason I mention this is because you have been throwing such things back at me. The onesideness of your expectations is not only frustrating but unfair.

Yet if what you want to establish are WF’s reasons for being defensive, I think these things all need to be considered. I’m pretty sure I put as much time into doing extra things for you as you have for me. Certainly none of those things have been considered here as you try to state a valid reason for why WF might need to feel defensive as well as why you think this contract for the horse should be paid off.. I know from experience that not giving the other party credit for their contributions does not make for a good relationship.

The other thing that makes me wonder here is what is the point of referencing 12 horses in that manner. It makes it look like you are saying the hours were long because you were working 12 horses for me on those long days and that is not the case. Such loose use of your words can definitely contribute to one’s perception about what was actually taking place.

As for board, I owe you nothing for board. I paid board for Reflection the entire time he was there. I did ask when we were working out the details of the contract on the horse to have the board applied. WF said she couldn't swing it so I agreed to pay board even though it put me in a tough spot financially. Part of the time I paid by check. Other times I paid for your alfalfa from EPH so I could use my credit card. It looks like you have forgotten about this as well.

You know that I am very sorry that you got hurt jumping off of my horse. I don't know why that is even showing up here. How does that relate to this subject? I had no control of that. It goes with the territory training horses. Every trainer knows that. How does that fit into WF’s feelings about our relationship? It bothers me that it is thrown out here like it somehow fits into her response directed towards me like it has bearing on this situation.

I can now see your point.
I'm glad that you can because I always try to use my words carefully whatever I post. Most of the time I try to do my posts like a reporter would, just reporting the facts……especially whenever I talk about my dealings with you. It is rarely I interject my opinion or loosely use my words. I have always tried to be sure that people understand and see you in the best light possible. I know what I say affects you as well as me so being accurate is very important to me.


So maybe you can address this for me. NOTE: BG is making reference to a comment that was made on the other blog. If he had been paying close attention, he would have realized the post was about him. He seems to be more worried about the comment than the actual post.
I hear you describe things that have happened....... things I have experienced with you. Those things seem to get bigger and more dramatic when you recount them than I or others see them. I'm not saying that to hurt your feelings. It is just an observation. Sometimes when something happens when I am not there I'm not sure how "bad" things really got because of that.

When I see that happen and then I hear you reminding me all the time that "everyone" does not like me and all those other things you pass on that they say, I have to wonder about the accuracy of it. You reminding me all the time about the things "they" say about me has me doubting myself so much I am struggling with depression again. Sometimes I wonder why you are always telling me such things then adding what a friend you are to me. What is this about?

To get out of this depression I have been trying to figure out what the problem is. What is different now from times past? I have been looking at my behavior and I have been looking at that of those around me trying to figure out what it all really means and how it fits into what is currently going on in my life.

As part of that processing I can't help but wonder how the fact you seem to see things bigger sometimes may play into this. I know that "everyone" is an exaggeration but what else is? There are horse people who like me besides you. I have friends in this industry whether you realize that or not. Yet you regularly tell me about negative perceptions other people have of me in such a way it sounds like the entire horse community thinks I am a nut and unlikable.. It comes across that I should feel really grateful you are my friend at all. Did you think this would not affect me or our relationship? What really is the point?

Please don't overlook the fact that I am examining everything that I am doing and saying as well as trying to figure out what I might have done that has caused this. That post was about processing. Asking the questions, answering them in possible ways, trying to find something that fits. I still don’t know what I think.

It was a friend who suggested most of that last paragraph in my response to Donna including the part about you stirring the pot. It was after this whole thing had begun and I was feeling attacked. Since that blog doesn't get read except by a few of my blogging friends, I posted some of the stuff rolling around inside my head. I was trying to sort them out. . I was angry and hurt so I threw it out there........venting I guess and hoping for input from my friends. I am not proud of it but one thing you can trust is I will always take responsibility for my behavior whether it is good or bad.

I address that above and it should have been taken off line. As I said that option didn't cross my mind.

I really don't think that is the issue I think you have made it an issue in the way you bring up that people call me "the crazy lady from Graham" and other such negative stuff so much. The underlying message is I should be thinking about what I do because of how they already feel about me.

You tell me at the oddest times what people say about me. I can't tell if it's old information, new information, all I know is it's more of the same. I don't understand what the point of telling me those things over and over is but it doesn’t feel like a good thing. Maybe you can explain that to me.

I disagree with this. Some times its really hard to know YOU , I said you didn't get me, you disagreed and then you said I was difficult to get to know.. Isn't that an oxymoron? Do you understand what I am about or don't you?

As for knowing me, you know the things about me that are important. You know that integrity is very important to me. I don't lie. I don't cheat. I don’t steal. I don't take advantage of people. I try to live by the golden rule. I believe that horses should be treated with kindness and not bullied into doing things as well as people. Fairness is important to me for both horses and people. I could go on, yet it looks like this whole thing started because WF thought I was being unfair with that post and from the sounds of the rest of this taking advantage of you in lots of ways. Something I would never do.

you have to admit that sometimes I'm dealing with different people.

No, I don't have to admit this because it is not the case. It is easy to point the finger at a diagnosis. If you knew more about my history you would know that is not the case. For you to have seen different people you would have had to see children under the age of 7. I know that hasn't happened. None of those children have been visible in public for many years and those are pretty much the only different people who live inside me.

You have seen different moods in me, just as I have seen different moods in you. Mine are no more erratic than yours.

I do agree to this, you are committed to the Arabian bred, you do live and breath it. Well, at least we agree on something. That's a start I guess.

Agreed we both need to accept each other for who we are. This is good, we now agree on two things.

I hope I have addressed some of them at least. I think it's a start but I'm pretty sure neither of us is done yet.

I agree with this. What I don't understand is back when my mom was sick and in the hospital and I thought I was leaving we talked. You said we were good on Storm, you said that the first year of him showing you would like the Sweepstakes and WF and I agreed with this. So it was our understanding at that point we were good, and that we agreed on the obligation / terms we were even. I have continued to work the horses due to me enjoying them.
You were the one who came up with the terms other than the price of $30,000. That was set by me. The terms you suggested were credit for training horses at the rate of $300 a month per horse working them 5 days a week and you would train 5 horses. You also said that you didn't want Legs to be included in the 5 horses. What you said at the time was that you started helping me with Legs just because we were friends and you wanted to continue doing it that way. I was touched by that gesture and agreed to accept those terms as you agreed to accept the price.

To be honest, if you had wanted me to pay for training for Legs, I would have declined. I believed then and still believe now I can accomplish my goals on that horse by myself. What I really needed and still do is to get the young horses safe for me to ride. That is what my plan was right from the start. The training to pay for the horse was for starting horses. I knew with the amount of training that gave me I could probably get all of the young horses I need to have started trained to the point they would be safe enough for me to ride. Having those young horses started would make up for not having the sale of Storm to generate funds for the daily operations of my business. There would be a slight delay on the income of that revenue but it would be worth it to have those young horses safe for me to ride.

How could you think that the amount of training in those months from when we started this agreement to when you mother got sick would have been anywhere near enough to pay off a $30,000 debt? Certainly that was not possible at that rate set forth in our agreement.

There's no way I could afford to do such a thing not to mention what IRS might think if I literally gave away a horse with that kind of value when I am operating in the red. You know that my business is struggling. It was a big deal for me to even consider making such an offer toward you. Yet I believed that doing so would be better for us both in the long run. I would have my young horses started well enough to get them sold and you would have a great horse to take over with when WF decided to retire E*****.

Back when your mom was sick I did tell you not to worry about leaving. I figured we would catch up with training when it was possible. I did not say that we were even on Storm. That is an assumption on your part. As I stated above, I was not and am not in a position to do something like that. My business relies on sound business practices and that sure wouldn't be it. Storm was the most saleable horse I had at the time. He was well started and flashy. The number one thing that gets horses sold. Trading the horse meant waiting to get another horse as far along as him before I could even think about making a sale.

The Sweepstakes thing was a whole different matter but the fact your mother was sick is what brought it to mind for me at that time. What I said was that if anything happened to you and Storm wasn't paid off with training, I wanted it in our contract that WF could pay off the balance owed on Storm with his Sweepstakes winnings. There was no stipulation about his first year or anything like that. When the balance was paid off, then the horse would be WF’s. That way she didn't end up losing her horse because she was unable to pay off the balance of the contract and I would still get the money I was owed. It was a win/win for both.

To be honest, I can't imagine how you could come to such a conclusion. Even doing the math about the horses that had been worked from the time we began the contract until that time, it just doesn't make sense. We had a couple of months or so of training in with only two loads a day. Didn't this seem rather odd to you?

I think you have received either all of or close too. I can go back on the records. But didnt feel a need to due to your statement when my mom was sick. We are miles apart here. We missed lots of time because of weather last winter. We also lost time when you were hurt. Then once show season started I was bringing only one load a day some of the time. Other days we weren’t working at all. After show season it really dropped off. You were canceling and whatever. I just figured you would make the time up not write it off.

As for how many horses your worked. I see that you have included Legs on your list. I addressed that above. Dandy is also there and you and I spoke about Dandy. I told you if you were going to charge me for Dandy, I didn't want it done. He was there for GD and "walk/trot rider", not me. He was one of your projects with “your” kids. You wanted to change his head position and we decided GD would school him. He was never supposed to be included and you agreed to that.

If you remember, I was and am pretty much divorced from my granddaughter in regards to horses. Her showing Dandy really never had anything to do with me. It was really about "walk/trot rider", She needed a safe horse to ride and I owned one so I loaned him to you for her use. GD showed him too because that got him to the show since walk/trot rider's mother could not afford to take a horse to the show but she could afford to pay for the class fee for a horse that was already there. That is why Dandy was used for your project.

BG, if you recall I talked to you about trading Storm for training because you were already helping me with these horses and asking nothing of me financially at that time. I felt bad you were doing so much for me and I had nothing to offer.

When you expressed an interest in the horse I thought offering him to you in trade for the work was a good idea. Since I didn't want to take advantage of you by having you work horses for me when I could not pay, it was a way for me to get the help and you to get something as well. I thought it was the fair thing to do.

In a continuing attempt to be fair, I have always tried to stay within the limits of how many horses you said you wanted to work in regards to this contract. I didn't want to be taking advantage of you and I didn't want to wear you out. I also wanted to be sure I had training credit left for the number of horses I knew I needed started. Whether you are aware of that or not I was continually monitoring how many horses you were working so I didn’t go over that number. There were exceptions when you worked 6 horses for me but that was it. There were never more than 6 and many days a smaller number was worked. I made sure I worked the balance of the horses myself.

Whenever there was a "training slot" open because a horse was sore with girth sores or for whatever reason one was left at home, we filled in with another. I talked to you about that and you said that was ok. That is how the overall number got to 12. There were never more than 3 loads a day. When I was bringing 3 loads a day, I was working a third of those horses. I was making sure that I was doing that because I didn't want to ever take advantage or burn you out. It didn’t make sense for me to be sitting there freezing my *ss off watching you work my horses when there were horses I wanted to work. After all, my goal was never about you doing all the training of my horses, it was about getting them well started.

It was never my intention to turn over all of my training to you. Once I could ride again after my surgery, I was working horses out of every load. When we did go up to that third load, it was a longer day because we were working around each other but not because you were working all 9 horses. I can understand how it felt that way for sure. I felt like I had worked all 9 of them myself between tacking them up, untacking them, working those I worked and running them back and forth from the trailer. We were both exhausted. But I have never tried to say I did all of the work. How can you do that?

I have a problem with your records. All the horses were on that list whether I worked them or you worked them. Those horses were checked off your list as if you did them even when I was the one that worked the horse. I spoke to J***** about it one time when I caught her marking off Vee when I had just worked her. She told me it didn't matter who was working the horse, you were just keeping track of all the horses no matter which of us worked them. That makes your records inaccurate.

I said this to WF in regard to her comment and she insisted that you worked all 9 horses. Yet that is not the case. She also insisted that you are currently working 5. That is not the case either. If you think about it, you know you have been working only 4. I am working Tag and Legs while you are working Louie, Percy, Reflection and Suede. Isn't that so?

The same is true of those 3 loads of horses a day. I would never have allowed you to work 9 of those horses. I was counting all along on getting the others horses I needed to be started with this training and doing my best to assure that happened. We only got solidly started with 3 horses and barely begun with another 2. I should have lots of credit left. I made sure of that as I made the decision about who to bring and which ones I would work.

I think you have received eigther all of or close too. I can go back on the records. But didnt feel a need to due to your statement when my mom was sick. As I stated above, I did not tell you that you had fulfilled your obligation to me at that time. That is a misunderstanding on your part. I was telling you it was OK if you needed to take a break to go visit your sick mom. As for those records, they will probably be helpful in determining what days horses were worked and how many were brought each day, I would think. They certainly are not an accurate number of the number of horses you worked, however.

I feel I have. When you count into the training of the 12 horses I worked with, lessons either with you or with others on your behalf, breeding your horses for you , show fees ( helping you at the shows) boarding of the horse for 5 mos. hauling your horses including gas and time it took. Here we are really in trouble because that is nowhere near accurate. According to your calculations at the time we decided this deal to trade my horse for you training at the rate of 5 horses a month it would have been Oct of this year before you had worked off Storm.

Granted as I stated above, there were times when you were working 6 horses but that is the most you ever worked and that was not all of the time. There are also lots of times when you only worked 2 or 1. And still more times since regionals that you haven't worked any. Remember you agreed to not count Dandy as I requested since he was there for one of your kid projects and I accepted your gesture about not counting Legs. Those two horses do not count in this.

As for show fees, I didn't agree to show fees and I was pretty much on my own at horse shows anyway. Did you charge show fees to Mel, Charlie or Karen? They were there in pretty much the same capacity as me. You might have been there on the rail but you were there on the rail before we ever struck this deal and there was never any mention of show fees. Nor was I ever charged.

I was stabled with you guys. I paid for my own tack rooms, was on my own whenever I schooled Legs at home or at shows. Yet you think you can charge me for lessons and show fees. I have asked you a couple of times if he looked ok. It was never a lesson and I doubt you can honestly believe it is. On the contrary, you repeatedly told me you wouldn't think of telling me how to ride.. How many times did I tell you how your horses were looking to give you that extra set of eyes on the ground? Yet you didn't offer the same to me. You watched a little of my ride sometimes but pretty much kept your opinions to yourself. You sure didn’t give me lessons.

Since you now seem to be thinking each little thing should have a price tag what about that? Nothing was mentioned about things being different than the year before when I stabled with you at horse shows. If that was indeed to be the case, why didn't you disclose that at the time we went over the terms of this contract of ours? Here all the time you were telling me what good friends we were doing things for each other and you are now trying to add all the things you did and a few extras on to the contract. What has changed to cause this?

There were no lessons given to others on my behalf. I don't know where that is even coming from. Can you explain this to me?

I did ask for your help breeding when I was gone managing the Morgan horse show. You even helped a couple of times when I was here. I didn't realize you were going to expect payment and you didn't mention it. Again you told me you enjoyed helping out your friend.

As for when you picked horses up at my horse and charging for the gas and time, I offered you money for gas, you told me not to worry. I even mentioned your time. You said you were doing it because you didn't want to miss out on working the horses. Now, you've decided you should be paid. I am rapidly losing my trust here. Can you see why?

I might just as well throw into the mix here, I told you repeatedly that I could lunge my own horses and yet you kept getting in there and telling me you liked doing it and lunging them anyway. I see you have included those horses on your list of training horses as well. Do you really believe that is fair?

I quit bringing those horses over because you wouldn’t listen to my attempts to tell you that I didn’t need your help with them. Are you planning on charging me for all of those times you worked them while I worked with that gelding for you too? Is that really fair? Wasn’t I supposed to be the one deciding which horses you worked and which you didn’t? And doesn’t my time with that colt of yours count?

There are all these things that you did for me because we are friends. (Those are your words.) Now you are planning on putting a price tag on all of them all and deducting them from what you owe me for this horse. Not to mention the things you have added that you did not do. None of these things were ever discussed as part of the contract. Are you really trying to say that they were? Boy, if that's the case, it sure tells me something about you that I hadn't figured out. I hope that is not the case.

As I look at all of these things you’ve now come up with as chargeable, I can’t help but think about the fact this all got started because I didn’t want to take advantage of you. I have done everything I could possibly do to be totally fair and then some. I had no idea I should have been making sure you didn't take advantage of me. There is some kind of irony there. You have either forgotten or don't care about things that were decided at the very beginning of our deal, which is it?

The interesting thing about this is that you said we were working together because we are friends and it was to our mutual benefit to work together with the horses. We each had something to offer the other in this process and the horses came out better because of it. I have always agreed with that. Yet, the only thing that counts now is what you feel you have contributed. What does that say about our friendship? What does that say about your ethics?

Now you want to bill me for every little thing like a client. Not to mention you want to charge me for things you don’t' even charge your clients. In case you have forgotten you have told me countless times you don't charge you clients show fees at A shows or even regionals. You've quoted off prices that other trainers charge comparing them to your zero dollars. I remember a number of conversations where we talked about that. Did you think I wouldn't remember? I guess you did because here you are saying I owe you for show fees.

You have treated your obligation to me nowhere near as professionally as you treated other clients in the barn. You took for granted that I would groom my own horses despite the fact this is not something that clients normally do. You totally lost track of what was even happening with my horses at horse shows. If I hadn't kept track of that poor Louie would have been totally forgotten. As it was, he was so stressed out because he had so many things thrown at him right before his first ever class at a horse show. The things a trainer normally sees to were not done. The poor horse was so stressed he was trying to bite people in frustration. He didn't even get properly schooled in the ring that morning before the class. Talk about a set-up for a young horse. Yet you think that you should be able to charge me show fees. Not only is that out of line but I doubt you would do something like to some of your other clients. Why is that?

I find this whole list of things you have now decided I owe you to be offensive. You have taken what you repeatedly told me were gestures of friendship and now turned them into your own personal fundraiser. I'm really upset that you have resorted to this. How did this happen? Do you really think this is appropriate or fair?

How was I supposed to know when you were helping me before the contract with Storm for what you said was about friendship that everything would change and become ALL about money after it? We didn't talk about it. None of these things were ever terms of any contract between us. I am even more confused now, than I was before. I don't know what to think. How was I to know that you have decided anything done in friendship by you is now billable? Can you give me some insight into this?

If our friendship is important to you as you say, I think you need to take a close look at what you are doing. Is the almighty dollar more important than doing what is right? I know you know what our contract was really about. You may have forgotten, but I'm sure if you think about it , it will come back to you.

There’s one other thing I’d like you to think about. You started off saying that you thought you had fulfilled your obligation to me at the time you mother was hospitalized. You said you worked horses after that for free because you enjoyed working them

Then you proceeded to list all the things you say I owe you for after that time. Yet there has been no mention in all of these many months since those things happened that you expected me to pay for any of these things. I’ve spent enough time around you to know that if I owed you money for that long I would have heard about it. Not only that, most everyone else in the barn would have heard about it too. Yet now you want to claim that those things should be deducted from the price you owe on the horse. Don’t you think that’s a pretty big inconsistency?

Then there is the fact that just this last Christmas party WF said that any horse you touched would count towards the money you owed me and she specifically mentioned Legs. I didn’t get into it at the time with her because there were so many people around. I planned on speaking with you later. Then you didn’t work horses for me for a while and it got lost with a number of other issues I was concerned about. If you really believed that you already owned Storm why would WF ever make such a statement? You were no longer working Legs. This is another huge inconsistency. I suspect you know in your heart you still owe me money for this horse. What are you planning to do about it?

You say this relationship is important to you. I guess the way you deal with this situation will tell if that is true. Is this issue going to be resolved? Or are you going to tell me we are at am impasse again?

I was hoping he would answer that email in one way or another. While I did not receive an email response, this email did turn out to be a contributing factor in my case against BG and WF.

To be continued.......................

A Trade??

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